I don’t consider science and God mutually exclusive - never have, never will. Frankly, I think its absurd to even try to make them either : or propositions, because people who do try generally tend to find themselves entrenched in a position they can't backpedal out of when they hit a analytical snag. The truth is, even science can’t explain everything - scientists have admitted it, and I'm always confused by the failure of people who claim to "defend" science's inability to admit this.
One should not elevate science itself to infallible Godhood in an attempt to defend its rightness - that would be totally spinning the argument for science on its head. Despite consistent application of analytical theorization to a set of facts, some scientific conclusions are simply still just speculation.
Faith, of any kind, has already admitted on its face that it is speculation. People have already quoted the bedrock (and damning, if you’re putting forth an argument) scripture about faith in one various "religion" discussions (e.g. 2 Peter 1:20,21). No one is even arguing that it is not speculation - sight unseen, sight unproven.
Proven would be the antithesis of Faith.
this is entire crux of this passage:
Rom 8:24,25 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for [it].
So. If your argument is that a belief in God is based on speculation - you have no dissent, because we agree. However, I would argue also that scientific theory is also speculation. I seriously feel like I’m repeating an old argument so I wont belabor that point, but I will show you this passage, and I find it humorous, because if you step back from the red haze of blind debate, you have to find it interesting how it also applies to how science goes about conceptualizing its understanding of the universe:
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made
Isn’t it true that scientists, great thinkers, etc., in many instances explain the unknown by the known? Everyone, scientists and believers alike, take what IS and speculate about what WAS or what WILL BE. In this, we are alike, whether admitted or not.
Now. When you get down to brass tacks about the veracity of the bible, or the Quran, or any other chosen scripture, yadda, yadda, my understanding is that the bible is the only one that has been consistently proven as a historically correct document. Science has proven many of the events explained as having happened. Some people take issues with some parts, some with all of it, and suddenly what you have is a line drawn down the middle, and people on either side either believing or not believing. All or nothing. Such a dogmatic approach has to be very limiting for those scientists who choose to take it, because they are forced to become extreme, and even reject its proven historical context and truth.
I find people like that unreasonable in their profession, and extreme to the degree of fanaticism.
But lets talk about normal people you meet.
People chat about belief in God all the time - what you have is:
1. An un-informed guess
......(a) a scientific guess
......(b) a religious guess
2. An educated guess
......(a) a scientific guess
......(b) a religious guess
3. Wholesale acceptance of anything told to them without investigating for one's self.
The truth is, you could run into any one of these people at any time, and may not know the difference. What's unfortunate for science is that it is a human impulse to believe in something greater than one's self (cant be bothered to cast back to Philosophy class to figure out which person espoused that point) - always will be. And the true argument of science with religion is generally the argument of the skeptic with that same human impulse to God.
I am very happy that we do not all have to be skeptics. Nor do I think the questions should go unasked. Because undoubtedly there is an answer to every question, whether it is accepted or not, and there are a great many skeptics who obtained the answer they were seeking.
Quote:
So, an 11 year old girl died in Wisconsin of diabetes because her parents did not believe in medicine, but instead in prayer healing. She first stopped eating, then drinking, then could barely walk, and finally went comatose on a mattress on their kitchen floor.
Before we get all caught up in the emotionalism of the moment, let me first say that I have concerns about this story. I'm confused about why the mattress was on the kitchen floor? I've had the dubious pleasure of seeing inside the homes of people who live like that, and from my observation, its unclean and strange even if the child was 100% healthy. In the home I saw, even the dog slept on the bed - people also walked on it with their shoes, and it didn’t have sheets on it. It disturbed me, and I was a child. Suffice to say, I was very glad when our visit ended.
I have no problem with prayer healing. I also have no problem with corporeal punishment. I do have a problem with parental neglect, and I have a serious problem with child abuse. I do, however, understand that the former instances do not necessarily include the latter instances. I think it shameful that so many people guilty of the latter(s), attempt to shield themselves by claiming the former(s). Further, my understanding was that most states will charge a parent with a criminal charge (of neglect?) if they just let their child die - you cant do that because you will have broken the law.
The way I see it, its up to the parent. Believe in God and see your faith met with healing or see your child die and go to jail (in this instance, I think the inner turmoil a real, loving, caring parent would feel would be jail enough - that, or they would have a great inner peace). Or take the child to doctor and they might be instantly better or they might die of a terminal illness anyway. Or do both. It’s their child, its their choice. Me? I am totally ok with prayer/faith healing - I even believe it such that I do not take medicine (unless of course my dad made me, which was once when I was a child, and unless you count Novocain at the dentist). Not even an Advil or Tylenol for a headache. I'm ok with that. The way I see it, I'm just like any normal person - I'd like to live life as long and as full as I can, but I am not crazy - death is something that will visit us all, someday. Its in my signature! Who's to say my day wont come sooner than later? If its my time to go, its my time to go.
Let's talk about the dead.
I actually know people who have died - young people in their 20s or 30s, friends who have died of terminal illnesses who refused medicine or surgery, etc, and others who have died who accepted medicine surgery, etc. And you know what their doctors said to them in the face of their illnesses? Do you believe in God? Pray. So give the people who decide to pre-empt the thousands of dollars in medical bills and just stay home a break. Some people do believe in God, and some ailments are irreversible by modern science - maybe it would be more preferable to the healthy spectator, the intellectual debater to have the Ill first spend every dollar trying to solve the problem medically, and then, when their doctor tells them to "Pray" to pray. Give me a break. Die with dignity. I've seen it, and its far better than dying scratching, clawing, clearly dying and still unhappy, still turbulent even at the close of your life.
Everyone is not the same - some believe faith is exercised by medical intervention. Others believe faith is exercised when medical intervention is rejected. Everyone is different, with a different interpretation - it is personal down to the individual. What is true, though, of those people who reject medical intervention, is that they are consciously making a decision to rely only on God and (1) be healed, or (2) die.
What they are doing is taking the choice out of their own hands, and placing the result squarely on their God. For better. For worse. And they accept either outcome. If they get better, thank God. If they die, it was their time to go - they were not supposed to be bettered in any way. I feel there is dignity in that quiet acceptance of one's fate. Furthermore, I don’t think the feeling or impulse to give/live this ultimatum is a strange or odd impulse - else we wouldn’t have phrases like: do or die! or even Paul Revere's statement give me liberty or give me death. Sometimes, death is one of the alternatives on the table, inevitable or not.
They'd. Rather. Die.
Now. Let's talk about the living.
Belief that God heals presupposes a belief in God (so for sake of argument these people believe in God). It also presupposes a belief that the choice of healing is his - and that he may or may not choose to heal. Do you know that I also know people who he has healed? I've seen it with my own eyes, and not from a charlatan or "faith healer" shyster as depicted in the movies. No. Time would fail for me to tell you of the things that have happened to one of the people closest to me: my own mother, for one. I would characterize her as a devout woman of faith - for my whole life. Here are a few stories that I saw with my own eyes.
Example 1:
When I was young, my mother fell off of a ladder, harming both of her legs and completely and irreparably crushing her right ankle. She was told by her doctor that she would never walk again. We all believed it, specifically me and my sibs because we were the ones who were her nursemaids. We had to bring everything to her bed - even bedpan because she was unable to walk. My father carried her wherever she needed to go, and when he was at work, my brothers and sisters and I did everything else. Everything. She was given therapy, and at one point, her doctor informed her that her foot was dead, her leg was dying, and that they would need to amputate her leg. She refused to have it amputated, such that even though we were children she would discuss emergency situations with us, that if ever an ambulance came and took her before our dad got home, we were to insist that her leg not be amputated. She was told she would die if it wasn’t amputated. She and my father got opinion after opinion from other doctors and the answer was the same - if the leg wasn’t amputated, she would die. I was there. I even occasionally went to hospital with her. She chose to believe God, and we ended up having the family talk (sans Dad on this one! He's a non-Christian ) that we needed to understand that Mom might die. You have no idea how hard and how many nights I prayed. She prayed. My sibs prayed. Even my non-believing Father prayed. Our friends prayed. Or Pastor prayed. Our church prayed. And one day, instead of dying, she started walking with crutches. And then with the two-handed cane. And then with a 1-hand cane. And then with high-top tennis shoes. And then with flats. And then with heels. And as of today, she runs with both feet just like me, and suffers occasionally the mild ankle swelling that many middle-aged women do. It wasn’t overnight like some Benny Hinn entertainment venue. Like some side show, with "healing" to be sold for money. It was real. It was over time. And it was in direct contradiction to modern medicine. I'm willing to believe 1 doctor mis-diagnosed. but 3? 4? She climbed up on a ladder this year with both feet to hang the curtains in the first floor of my home.
Example 2:
Again, I was a teen, and good lord, again my mother was at the hospital and she and my dad kept going back for various visits. It was to the point where we were like What is going on?? Finally, they could keep it from us no longer: they sat us down and told us that the doctor had found a tumor in my Mom, and that he had said it was cancerous. They had been back again and again for various tests and were waiting for results. They tried to play it down, like, of course it wouldn’t be cancer for real, like REAL deathly cancer, and for us not to worry, but to pray, and they would let us know. Weeks went by. You cannot know how many nights we prayed for her life - I could not imagine life without her. I was a child. I was like God! I know I can, but I don’t want to live without my Mom! Please! I'm not ready yet! More weeks went by, and finally my Mom sat us all down (again, without my Dad), and explained to us that the tests had come back showing she had cancer, that she was refusing surgery and treatment, that she was believing in God. She also explained that the doctor had sent her and my Dad home and told her she would be dead inside 4 months, and that we needed to understand that she might die. That was an intense period of time in our lives. Lots of prayer happened, and none really in a church environment. A month passed. Another month. Another month. Another month. Another month. Months and months. Finally one day, I asked her Mom, do you still have cancer? She didn’t know. She made herself a doctor’s appointment and went in to see the same doctor. When she came back she said he was surprised she was still in the land of the living, had run tests, and had found no tumor. At all. He would not accept that he had mis-diagnosed, and told her she must have really prayed.
The doctors know her very well, and every time she has had a life-threatening illness (there are more), they don’t even fight with her - they know she's the lady who believes in God, and even though they may be dubious about God, they don’t argue that strange things happened in her case.
Of all the cases I know personally, I am constantly amazed by the dignity with which they lived or died.
Now. Somewhere in there I get the feeling that this became incredibly sappy, and that's unfortunate, but probably because I answered a scenario with a scenario. Ah well. Cant be helped. And now, because I'm such a sap , here you go:
Last Lines
by Emily Bronte
No coward soul is mine,
No trembler in the world’s storm-troubled sphere:
I see Heaven’s glories shine,
And faith shines equal, arming me from fear.
O God within my breast,
Almighty, ever-present Deity!
Life—that in me has rest,
As I—undying Life—have power in Thee!
Vain are the thousand creeds
That move men’s hearts: unutterably vain;
Worthless as wither’d weeds,
Or idlest froth amid the boundless main,
To waken doubt in one
Holding so fast by Thine infinity;
So surely anchor’d on
The steadfast rock of immortality.
With wide-embracing love
Thy Spirit animates eternal years,
Pervades and broods above,
Changes, sustains, dissolves, creates, and rears.
Though earth and man were gone,
And suns and universes cease to be,
And Thou were left alone,
Every existence would exist in Thee.
There is not room for Death,
Nor atom that his might could render void:
Thou—Thou art Being and Breath,
And what Thou art may never be destroyed.
http://classicpoetryaloud.podomatic.com/entry/2007-11-12T13_22_46-08_00
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